The discovery, or more to the point, someone making me aware of a photo of what apparently is the Preston Second 18 from 1940, gave me another opportunity to try and make a few more identifications.
It came from Graeme Atkinson, who I had ‘spoken’ to a few times on the Northern Bullants / Preston Football Club Supporters’ Facebook page, and the hope now was it may, as other photos have done, possibly help with other previous identifications. Or, perhaps just help to confirm some already held beliefs.
Fortunately, now being something like eight weeks into a one week Covid lockdown, which became lockdown 6 for Melbourne, it’s given me a fair bit of time to have a crack at this new found photo.
So, first assessment of said photo?
Quality is not great. But that’s more the norm, than the exception.
Second, there are two in the photo that I believe I recognise. Along with a third, but I’ll get to that one in a minute.
The first is the guy in the middle row, far left. He stands out immediately to me as Bob Taylor from the 1940 photo.
I’ve still not been able to find a photo to absolutely confirm that that is who I believe him to be, but with identifications done of everyone else in that photo, I’m pretty happy with the call. Knowing that he missed a few senior games in 1940, as well as finding several newspaper mentions of him to play in the seconds, also helps with my thoughts.
The second player that stands out is middle row, fourth from left; Ingy Norman, also from the 1940 photo.
Up until a few weeks ago I was still at the point of making an educated guess on Ingy’s position in that 1940 photo. That was until I reached out to the Fitzroy-Brisbane Lions Historical Society, who just happened to have a photo of not only Ingy, but also his brother Jack.
The photo of Jack just confirmed my beliefs, but the photo of Ingy completely changed my mind on what was in fact my incorrect ‘educated guess’.
The confirmation was nice, but the correction was even better.
The 1940 photo, with Ingy Norman back row, far left, and Bob Taylor, back row, second from right.
And that third player I also mentioned?
Ron Leishman, middle row, fifth from left.
That one probably came about mainly through luck, although, having said that, I had spent a fair bit of time trying to find him when looking at the 1941 photo.
The luck thing happened sometime after the 1941 researching, when I saw a post that just happened to pop up on the Northern Bullants / Preston Football Club Supporters’ Facebook page, making a mention of Ron Leishman.
That began a ‘conversation’ that corrected a belief from the 1941 photo, and then ultimately confirmed Ron’s place in this particular photo.
And that was from none other than Ron’s daughter.
Amazing who you ‘meet’ on the internet.
The 1940 Second 18 Team Photo, with thanks to Graeme Atkinson. Bob Taylor, middle row, far left, Ingy Norman, middle row, fourth from left, and Ron Leishman, middle row, fifth from left.
So, three identifications. Not a bad start, and could be far worse, but still a lot of work to do.
However, being a ‘seconds’ team, and as such newspaper coverage of the day won’t be overflowing with details, the confidence levels in the challenge ahead weren’t terribly high in finding too many of these guys.
An early win though, when Graeme sent me a photo of Frank Ackland, which can be found here. The resemblance is good, the fact that I knew he was the Captain / Coach of the seconds in 1940, along with seeing where he was sitting, and holding the ball, gave us the fourth identification.
The initial aim, as with all game day photos, is to see if it’s possible to work out which round it was taken. Away games are good, if there’s something in the background that gives a hint. That wasn’t the case this time.
White shorts suggests an away game, but that’s assuming that the seconds also wore alternate black (home) and white (away) shorts like the senior team did.
Happy to assume that for the time being.
But the first step, with the belief on Taylor and Norman, was to find which rounds they both didn’t play seniors together. The thought being that that was going to be easier than actually finding the stated / announced seconds team each week.
Managed to narrow it down to four possibilities – Rounds 7, 8, 12, or 13. Rounds 8 and 12 were played away, so the next goal was to see if the seconds also play away when the seniors do.
A little more searching was done, with the end result being that it appears they don’t. They play the same team, but they play at the ‘opposite’ ground.
Needing to find something that supports my theories, it was time to look at Round 7. And it doesn’t take too long to find this –
Seems Bob Taylor had a rather important engagement organised for the 1st of June, which I would imagine probably ruled him out of playing football that day.
So that leaves Round 13 against Prahran, at Prahran, and all I need now is the likely seconds team.
While it’s relatively easy to find the selected senior team, a seconds team is much harder, although a ‘squad’ is eventually found.
Not ideal, but at least there’s a bit to start with. Although lack of first names, let alone initials, as well as, in some cases, no mention of some of the names on The VFA Project having ever played a senior game, confirms to me that I’m probably unlikely to get too many ‘matches’.
Regardless, I pushed on, and while I spent a fair amount of time questioning what seemed a futile exercise, the occasional identification here and there kept me going.
The end result above is, for the time being, what I have, and below you’ll find what I have based my decisions on. Some of those identifications I am very confident on, others I’m less so, with both a lack of available information out there, as well as the poor quality of so many of the photos, being the main issues.
As always, it’s frustrating, but at least there are now a few faces with names. And again, as always, if anyone has more information, whether it be new, or even a correction, I’m more than happy to hear about it.
Back row: Unknown, Poss Bob Addison, Unknown
Middle row: Bob Taylor, Poss E. ‘Ted’ Hargreaves, Des Hanscombe, Ingy Norman, Ron Leishman, Unknown, Unknown, Unknown
Front row: Unknown, Poss Fred Beaumont, Unknown, Frank Ackland, Poss Robert Pinchbeck, Jack Robertson, Unknown, Unknown
Bob Taylor – Middle row, far left, based on 1940 senior photo.
Ingy Norman – Middle row, fourth from left, based on 1940 senior photo.
While Norman’s name doesn’t appear in the second’s squad list, he doesn’t play (seniors) Rounds 12, 13 and 14.
Article stating that he is to play with the seconds after the Round 11 game –
Named in the seconds squad for the Round 14 game on 20 July –
And then even listed in the seconds squad the day he played his first game back (R15) in the seniors –
Frank Ackland – Front row, fourth from left. Based on both the below photo, as well as his position in the team photo (and holding the ball) being the captain / coach of the team.
Frank Ackland, courtesy Boyles Football Photos.
1933 Northcote team photo here.
Ron Leishman – Middle row, fourth from right, based on his daughter (Carol) identifying him.
Des Hanscombe – Middle row, third from left, based on 1939 team photo (below) taken at Prahran.
Jack Robertson – Front row, third from right, based on both 1939 team photos.
1939 photo taken at Prahran. Des Hanscombe, middle row far right, and Jack Robertson, middle row, far left.
1939 photo taken at Preston. Jack Robertson, back row, second from right.
Edward* Hargreaves – Preston 1940 (2 games).
24 May 1940, Ted* Hargreaves, (hence the assumption that he is Edward) an 18 year old from Regent, who came to the seconds last year –
14 August 1943, army photo (with Pinchbeck) –
Possibly middle row, second from left, based on the army photo, as well as age mentioned in above link.
Robert Pinchbeck – Found articles stating that he was at Preston, on and off, from 1936 to 1941, but never played a senior game.
14 August 1943, army photo (with Hargreaves) –
Possibly front row, fourth from right, based on the army photo, but do have some doubts.
Ernie Dunham – Based on both teams listed on 12 July (below), Dunham ‘should’ be in the photo. But even using the two 1939 team photos to help identify him, I just can’t make a match.
Ron Hind – Preston 1941, 1946-50(70). Box Hill 1951(13). Wing http://www.thevfaproject.org/pages/Players/Hinds,_Ron.php
Is mentioned in many articles as both Hind and Hinds, but believe the correct surname is Hind. Was also made a Life Member of Preston Football Club.
Will quite possibly / probably be in the 1946 and 1947 photos, however identifications for those are some way off.
Ron Dunkley – Came from Reservoir, and then appears to have returned there, playing in the 1946 Reservoir Premiership with George Colban – https://websites.mygameday.app/club_info.cgi?c=0-3913-48192-0-0&sID=144106
Have seen that particular photo, but again, the quality makes it difficult to identify.
Wally O’Brien – Preston 1941(1). Seconds rover.
There were quite a few O’Briens back then, and that made accurate researching very difficult.
Pat Walmsley –
Pat Walmsley is possibly Francis George Walmsley from this engagement notice on 31 May 1941 –
He has joined the RAAF, and will be called up 24 April –
The above links seem to align with this page – https://honouringveterans.org/vet_profile.php?id=949805
Jack Doherty – Preston 1938-39 (3 games).
Brother of a Collingwood player, who appears to be Vin –
And Jack played Collingwood reserves –
Robert ‘Bob’ Addison – 18-7-1908 – 8-3-1988. 157cms. Williamstown 1933-34(27). Footscray 1931(1)
15 May 1940, R. Addison former Williamstown rover who has been at South Bendigo –
30 May 1940, R. Addison, South Bendigo to Preston –
Best guess would be back row, centre, based on him being 157cms, and 32 years old at the time of photo.
I. McPherson – Half Back Flank.
Listed as MacPherson on VFA Project. From Preston CYMS April 1938 – http://www.thevfaproject.org/pages/Players/MacPherson,_J__Pre38.php
17 March 1939, McPherson was at Preston in 1938 –
Vincent Pollard –
8 May 1940, Vincent Pollard from Fitzroy seconds –
Alf Pannell – Yarraville 1931-33, 1938-39(18). Preston seconds 1940. Williamstown 1935(9). Port Melbourne 1941, 1946(20). (Footscray seconds 1934). Follower / Flanks.
12 April 1940, newcomer A. Pannell from Yarraville –
L. Dean –
12 April 1940, L. Dean, newcomer from Drysdale –
Jack Neville –
27 March 1940, Jack Neville, a half forward flanker from Ivanhoe –
F. Mirabella –
31 May 1940 – a centre man from Hastings, who played Footscray seconds a few years ago –
But may be S. Mirabella –
13 June 1940, S. Mirabella, Footscray seconds to Preston –
2 April 1941, S. Mirabella (from Fitzroy Union?) at Preston training –
Fred Beaumont –
Is in both the 1940 and 1941 team photos.
1940 photo with Fred Beaumont, middle row, second from right.
1941 photo with Fred Beaumont, back row, far right.
I’d be surprised if he’s not in this, but photo quality is making it difficult to make an identification. Best guess is front row, second from left.
And finally, while there were a couple of slightly surprising finds when a surname was searched on Trove and Google, the searching of Cleland was probably the biggest one.
Seeing it was ‘I’. Cleland, was a nice start, but then seeing ‘Ian’, piqued my interest somewhat. It was a name that seemed vaguely familiar, but I didn’t know why.
A bit more searching, and my vague recollection became slightly clearer.
Ian Cleland –
10 April 1940, I. Cleland, new recruit from Thornbury Presbyterians –
24 April 1941, Ian Cleland cleared from Preston to Fitzroy –
Became an umpire, and while it states that he was at Preston seconds in 1938 and 1939, no record was found to confirm that –
Many references to his commentary days were found, including several photos.
But making identifications on photos 20 – 30 years apart is rather difficult. Surely, and hopefully, there’s a photo floating around of him, taken closer to 1940…..